In this episode, we have Andy Paul, author of Sell Without Selling Out. Andy is an award-winning podcast host and a career sales veteran, having seen the growth and evolution of the entire technology industry. Join us for a fascinating conversation about how a more buyer-centric sales process leads to more sales.
If you missed episode #202, check it out here: Insights into Founding a Fully Remote SaaS Company with Tom Lavery
What You’ll Learn
- Efficiently moving buyers through their buying journey
- Building deeper relationships with your buyers
- The four pillars of selling
- Looking at alternative ways to grow
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Show Agenda and Timestamps
- About Andy Paul [3:45]
- Reflections on how things have changed in sales [6:12]
- The four pillars of selling [12:30]
- True personalization at scale [14:51]
- Winning bigger deals without brand recognition [18:11]
- Good companies vs. bad companies [22:48]
- Paying it forward [24:49]
- Sam’s Corner [27:20]
About Andy Paul [3:45]
Sam Jacobs: Hey everybody, it’s Sam Jacobs. Welcome to The Sales Hacker Podcast. Today on the show we’ve got Andy Paul. Andy is an award-winning podcast host. He is a career sales veteran, having seen the growth and evolution of the entire technology industry, and he’s written a new book called Sell Without Selling Out about how to bring human-centric, buyer-centric sales process to your sales process.
So let’s listen to our sponsors, and then we’ll get right into the interview with Andy Paul.
This episode of The Sales Hacker Podcast is brought to you by Outreach. Outreach is the first and only engagement, and intelligence platform built by revenue innovators for revenue innovators. Outreach allows you to commit to accurate sales forecasting, replace manual process with real time guidance, and unlock actionable customer intelligence that guides you and your team to win more often. Traditional tools don’t work in a hybrid sales world. Find out why Outreach is the right solution at click.outreach.io/30NPC.
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Now, my question is, who is Andy Paul? Give us a little bit about your background.
Andy Paul: Andy Paul, this is your life. I earned my spurs selling computer systems primarily into the construction industry in the San Francisco area. I’m driving to a business park, and parking my car, and making cold calls. Worked for Apple in the early days of Apple, sort of a software evangelist. Then started my little journey through the startup world. About 20 years ago, I started my own company to help other small companies learn how to transform themselves by learning how to sell bigger deals.
Related: Using Sales Conversations to Find Product-Market-Fit
Reflections on how things have changed in sales [6:12]
Sam Jacobs: How has the act of selling changed over the last 30 years?
Andy Paul: In many cases it’s changed less than people want to believe. Even though we have this incredible influx of technology into the sales and marketing space, basically we’re automating processes that have existed for decades. That’s actually part of what motivated me to write this latest book was that sense — and looking at the data, and talking to hundreds and thousands of people I do on my show, and my work — that yeah, we’re struggling. We haven’t taken advantage of the technology
Sam Jacobs: When you say, “Sell without selling out,” what does selling out mean?
Andy Paul: We’re all familiar with the reputation that salespeople have in the world at large in the B2B space. To a large extent, I believe we continue to train sellers to think that their job is to go out and persuade a buyer to buy their product.
The real job of a salesperson is to go out and listen to the buyer. To understand, what are the most important things to them relative to the challenges they face, and the outcome as they want to achieve? And then, help the buyer get that. The first one is what I call selling out, and the other approach is what I call selling in.
“Do you have to act a certain way if you have a quota?” And the answer is no. If you’re selling in, you’re actually going to help the customer in their decision cycle because if you understand what’s most important to them, now you know exactly what it is you have to do to help them reach a decision.
There’s other ways to compensate sellers that’s more aligned to getting the outcomes that the buyer wants to achieve. The issue is not commission and compensation. The issue is how we’re training people to understand what their job is and what’s the best way to go do it.
The four pillars of selling [12:30]
Andy Paul: I talk about four pillars of selling. It’s based on innate human behaviors and how we amplify those in order to help people become the best version of themselves.
The four pillars of selling in are connection, curiosity, understanding, and generosity.
We are wired as humans to want to connect with other people, and it’s through our connection that we build the necessary credibility and trust to ask questions of the buyer. We are wired to be curious as humans. This is how we navigate the world around us. That to asking the right questions to understanding what’s most important to the buyer. Then, it’s how you give value to help the buyer make progress in their journey that is generous. So it’s those four pillars that are the heart of selling in.
True personalization at scale [14:51]
Sam Jacobs: What is the opportunity for true personalization at scale, or is it an oxymoron?
Andy Paul: The idea of mass personalization at scale is an oxymoron. For an SDR, what they need to be able to do is connect with the human at a level in order to engage in enough conversation to set a meeting, or a demo, or whatever. And so, that really starts with, are you really coming across as sincerely interested in this other person? How do you make yourself interesting to others?
We need to help enable sellers to build some sort of quick bond that says, “Yeah. I want to continue to invest time either with this person, or with this person’s company,” because that’s the decision buyers are making. Is this person worth my time and an investment of my time and attention? And if I do that, am I going to earn a return on that time and attention?
Winning bigger deals without brand recognition [18:11]
Sam Jacobs: One of the first big trainings that you focused on was helping people that didn’t have brand recognition win bigger deals. How do you do that?
Andy Paul: At the end of the day, it comes down to the seller. As a small company, you have to build that credibility and trust. Obviously, you got to go out, and you got to connect, and understand what’s most important to the people you’re talking to… this level of the way you differentiate yourself is by learning more about the buyer, and understanding more about the buyer, and the problems they have, and the things they’re trying to achieve, then giving them perhaps a different perspective on how they can go about achieving it. You have more flexibility oftentimes as a small company to be able to do that, you can be a little more nimble. And so, rather than being at a disadvantage, you can actually use your size to your advantage.
Expose yourself to as many influences as you can. We have podcasts, we got LinkedIn, we’ve got books. Take advantage of it. Read widely about business. Ask questions.
Good companies vs. bad companies [22:48]
Sam Jacobs: What have you learned about what makes great companies tick, versus bad companies over the last couple of years doing this?
Andy Paul: Choose who you want to work for from a personal standpoint. Am I working for people who can help me get to that next stage?
Prioritize the person because you can’t predict the company. I worked for companies that have been very successful, gone public, been acquired. And I’ve worked for a couple that were just abject failures that I thought had potential, but I chose them because I thought it was the right person to go to work for.
Paying it forward [24:49]
Sam Jacobs: One of the things we do at the end is pay it forward a little bit. Who do you think we should read up on?
Andy Paul: Focus on learning about business in general. Subscribe to The Wall Street Journal online. There’s other books that are worthwhile reading like The Vest-Pocket MBA, resources that just make sure you understand how your customers make money.
Sam Jacobs: How do you prefer people get in touch?
Andy Paul: Go to Amazon, and buy the book Sell Without Selling Out. Reach out to me at AndyPaul.com. Follow me on LinkedIn. I’m very active there.
Sam’s Corner [27:20]
Sam Jacobs: Hey, folks. Sam’s corner. Really enjoyed that conversation with Andy Paul. Sales is still about putting people, human beings, at the center of the conversation. Too much, historically, people have been focused on just driving features, and not having an accurate conversation, or an interesting conversation about the person on the other end, and what really makes them tick. Sales is a beautiful profession when done right because it’s not about giving something to somebody that they don’t need. It’s actually about understanding people so that you can better help them.
Don’t miss episode 204!
Now, before we go, we want to thank our sponsors.
- Pavilion, the key to getting more out of your career
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- Freshworks, developing digital customer journey maps with Freshscales
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